It may not be as simple a question as a first glance reveals. Do you think that through some supernatural means, be it God, spirits, or magic, one can alter the laws of physics even for a short period of time? If so, how is this achieved, by your reckoning? Let's take, for instance, the water into wine example of a miracle.Many LDS people would probably believe that Jesus (and to an extent barring faith, all of us) has authority over atomic structures, and can simply command them to be something else. LDS people believe that the spiritual and the physical are separated only by a matter of "refinement" (spirit being the more refined of the two substances). But I am curious as to how a mainstream Christian, or a Wiccan, or a Buddhist would view such a miracle (pretend it was performed by someone other than Jesus if that complicates the problem).
Or how about when miracles aren't performed, but it seems like they really should be. I'm thinking of hurricane Katrina here. Kit posed the question to me of why a loving god would let this happen. My reply, "When clouds gather, he let's it rain." In other words, I think the powers that be have a vested interest in letting the laws of physics stay their course. But how much prayer, magic, or faith is needed to break the rules? Under what conditions do the powers that be let the rules be broken? Apparently, there weren't enough prayers, magic, or faithful thoughts to save Katrina, but why?
And why do some people claim their faith miraculously healed them of a terminal disease, but tales of amputees growing limbs back seem to be non-existent? If you are using the Judeo-Christian system, you have a couple of excuses to fall on: It was the mysterious will/master plan of God; if something as obvious as an arm growing back happened, faith would be compromised; bad things happen to teach us something.
What about other faith systems, specifically ones without centralized spiritual power? How do miracles work, and under what circumstances are they denied? Please illuminate me in the comments; I look forward to it. Keep in mind for this discussion miracle will mean any bending of the laws of physics as we know them by supernatural means.
Other theories that I can see working: Reality is an illusion, and breaking the rules involves believing in something beyond that illusion.
More to come as I think of em.
I think one of the more important things to remember in this argument is that if you can prove a belief, it is no longer a belief, but a fact. Faith without belief, is no longer faith, but science. I was always taught that miracles weren't supposed to be proof of God's existance, like, "Hey stupid mortals! I exist! Told ya so!" They were supposed to be a means of communication. God made the world for his sons and daughters, if he started deus ex machina-ing every five seconds, it'd be the equivalent of Dad walking over and ripping G.I. Joe's plastic head off every time Barbie cheated on Ken. (Terrible analogy, I know. I had an interesting childhood.) Earth is not God's ant farm, it's his children's playhouse. The children build their own world there and it's dad's job not to interfere so much that it will no longer be comfortable. However, it's okay if dad comes and weather seals the place to let the kids no that here cares and he'll make snacks when they wanna come back inside. This is gonna be the most wretched analogy I've ever tried to use, but Jesus is like the weathersealing...and the water into wine thing was like the stain in the weathersealing... "Oh hey, dad's trying to keep our playhouse safe." "Oh hey, you really are God's kid." Ugh...I don't know if it makes sense. If you ask me questions, I bet I could explain better...all I know is, it feels right to me in my head.
ReplyDeleteYou asked for a Wiccan point of view....so here goes. The path I follow leaves room for both free will (choice/action) and Deity help/interferrance. Basically, the Goddess gives us everything we need, it is up to us to make what we can of it. Her "job" is then to create a balance. Seeing that as a miracle or as a destructive force (i.e. the hurricane) is then up to the individual.
ReplyDeleteAny help? Or did I just throw another kink in your arguement?
I most certainly believe in miracles. I agree with Stephanie: if a miracle could be proven, then what's the point of faith?
ReplyDeleteI like that you brought up hurricane Katrina. Though I believe God can use the weather to his advantage if he wants, so many people like to think that disasterous storms are always God's wrath for some reason. Because New Orleans is like Sin City of the South, many bible thumpers where all over it as "God's plan to cleanse". OR MAYBE it was just a natural phenomenon plus poor human planning (why people would want to inhabit that area is beyong me personally --they have to bury their dead above ground for crying out loud!).
Horrible storms happen all the time. I believe God can potentially step in and stop the destructive storm if he wanted, but storms are part of nature and the order of things just as people, non human animals, and plants are. Sometimes I look at life like a computer program. The world is programmed to function. Plants have their program that tells them how to grow, cells know how to reproduce, the body know how to heal its self, etc etc. God is (probably) not constantly telling every single little cell to divide riiiiight... NOW! No. The weather is also on its own program. Now, life on earth is programmed and can run on its own (except for when we mess it up), but God can step in and do things here and there whenever he wants. Hurricanes are part of the progam. Death is part of the program. Just because it's not raining in the dessert or thousands of people are killed in a hurricane/tsunami/earthquake/volanic explosion, does not mean God is not loving. He can't always be stepping in and making everything be the way we want it. That's kind of the point -- we are not divine. What we think is important, He may not.
Plus, if we weren't being killed off periodically by weather and war, we would have overpopulated ourselves into oblivion by now.
Wow, really ran with the hurricane thing for awhile. But your original question... oh yeah. I guess if you want to pick apart a miracle like the ones the Jesus preformed, then yes, matter could be rearranged if that's an explanation that calms someone. To pick apart the 'how' of the miracle is missing the point of the miracle!
As for faith healings, I think that goes along with other miraculous healings and demonstrates not only the power of God and prayer, but also the power of our own minds as well. The powers the mind can have are seen in devout Buddist monks, martial artists, Hindu yogis, hypnotism... the list goes on. Things that cannot normally be accomplished by people can happen when the mind is in the right place and the body is under control. Boils can be raised and healed by the power of the mind alone. Terminal cancers have miraculously left the body. Very cool stuff. Divine intervention? I'd say yes. Even if it's only in the way that God gave us the ability to do that in the first place, if only that aspect can be tapped.
Sorry it got long there. I can ramble when allowed.
Mandy, I don't think I really have an arguement much either way (I'm a slight believer but more of a clock-winder type), I'm just curious about opinions.
ReplyDeleteokay, so far I think we have 3 votes on the yes scale.
Reasons for unanswered wishes:
Faith violation/angry dad :).
Giving just enough to get by/you must not be looking at it favorably. And...
Faith violation/part of the program.
Correct?
This type of disscussion is well represented in Primitive culture. Like the LDS certain tribes of many continents believe in the power of a being or sets of beings who influence the world we live in, or atleast the one they live in. Their notion of the world (speaking of primitive culture)accepts the miraculous as a natural part of life rather than modern cultures which believe in the supernatural. To a tribesman from New Guinea an event we may see as supernatural is quite natural to his eyes. Orthough his wonderment of the event is celebrated in similar ways to our own. This would seem like a step back in reason but for the knowledge that his world is closed whereas ours is open.
ReplyDeleteWhat this means to the discussion is that a world can exist where Mysticism or miracles aren't treated as something that cannot be understood, so to say that faith and miracles cannot be measured otherwise they fail to be so, is only one point of view, reason as distinct from believe or science as it is, must be the motive otherwise we are no better than a man who lives in a hut in New Guinea.
Progress as a species is not performed purely by faith or science but a synergy of these things within reason. The ability of some churches or belief systems to constrain minds is in stark contrast to the power of faith used in correct doses to do wonderful things.
It is obvious to me that things happen in this world that just cannot be identified, and that is truly exciting, but we often fail to take full knowledge of circumstances which i'm sure is the aim of most religions anyway.
Nice to see some well organised comments guys :) big kiwi thumbs up!
That is definitely a perspective I hadn't considered. Perhaps the question is not "Why miracles" but "Why not?"
ReplyDeleteI guess the answer to why not is this "civilized" culture of ours is the need for quantifyable proof. What I think you have shown me is the world can be as magical or mundane as one's culture allows.
Good thoughts!
The Buddhist take...
ReplyDeleteWell, Buddhism is a very diverse path. There are some Buddhists who do not believe in god(s) or anything supernatural because there is no objective proof of their existence and belief in them is often rooted in fear. They cite the Buddha's statememt:
"Gripped by fear, men go to sacred mountains, sacred groves, sacred trees and shrines."
I think they might be stretching that verse a bit, but they often point to it as support for the idea that Buddhism has no room for god(s).
On the other end of the spectrum, there are many tales of miraculous sightings and healings, as well as perfect deaths (where the body doesn't decay, there is no odor or the body smells like incense, etc.).
Personally, I think the best way to look at it is summed up in another bit of Buddhist scripture:
"No one saves us but ourselves,
No one can and no one may.
We ourselves must walk the path,
But Buddhas clearly show the way."
It's not that miracles are impossible - it's more that they are highly improbable. Investing a lot time or effort in praying for miracles is not as productive as simply trying to plan ahead and solve your own problems. You can (and should) certainly be grateful if a miracle does come your way, but for the most part you should carry your own load.
So in typical Buddhist fashion, my answer is really no answer at all... :)
There seems to be a similar statement in the western world of, "God helps those that help themselves."
ReplyDeleteI was hoping you'd chime in, as the only Buddhist miracles I could recall were from the manga (don't laugh, it's very touching and by the "god of manga" himself, Tezuka), where several strange and miraculous things happened to signify the importance of the Buddah's birth. But I was never sure if they were part of the myths, or the author's own flourish.
There are lots of tales about the birth of the Buddha and other important figures in Buddhism, but most Buddhists see them as myth or allegory, not literal fact. Some are quite inventive; I've heard that the Buddha was walking and talking the day he was born. Lotus flowers sprang up in his foot prints, and his sweat was a form of sweet ambrosia. Right...
ReplyDelete