Long post is looooong. And tautology cat is tautological.
If I could go back to the beginning and learn Japanese again... well, a number of things could have been better. No class I have ever heard of really teaches things in the right order. I'm not even sure what the right order is, but I think it might be something like this:Though I know it would make Tae Kim bristle, I think learning the kanji by the Heisig method (assigning English readings to, and memorizing out of context (at first) all the kanji, plus learning to write them via mnemonic stories) would be best for a beginner of Japanese. It would probably take up a whole semester; a really intense one. However, I wouldn't adhere strictly to the "daily use" kanji, since we all know that list is a bit off; on that point I break a bit with Heisig, but as per Heisig, delaying the Asian readings a bit bring us to the next phase/semester:
Then the kana comes. After that, the onyomi and katakana words. Then lots of 2-character words (finally, context of how kanji work together!), maybe as many as 500 (I would write their readings, at this point in the game, in katakana to subconsciously emphasize the difference from what is to come later). But not one-kanji words, because most don't use a Chinese reading and we don't want to worry about that and conjugation yet, so only onyomi readings, no tricky words with kunyomi reading at this point (no okurigana!), to be followed by longer, multiple-kanji words and 4-character words/idioms (gotta have idioms for fun and a little history helps make things interesting). At this time, だ can be taught to let the students finally be able to make a sentence.*
Following all these onyomi (kango) words would be the one-kanji kunyomi words complete with okurigana and conjugation(also *--you'll see why when you get to the footnotes). Towards the end of all this (at the same time): the beginnings of grammar instruction.
And when I talk grammar, I think the order should be important too. First, the concept that a verb is a complete sentence (and that a copula is a very special verb with limited conjugations!); I wouldn't emphasize the pronouns for a long time (though they may know the kanji and readings for them, students wouldn't get the grammar to use them for a while). I want to make subject-less language seem natural to them. I would cover almost all the verb conjugations (this is during the kunyomi stage of instruction); really show how agglutinative this language is. At the same time, the suru verb concept gets good play.
Following right along should be na-adjectives, because of the special role that copulas play with them, letting you make adjectives (na is da). Then no-adjectives, which should be a short section. After that, i-adjectives, because if we learn them after other adjectives, we are less likely to get na-adjectives that sound like i-adjectives mixed up in our heads when we conjugate (so master those na-adjective+copula conjugations first! Not 綺麗くない!綺麗じゃない).
At each step, I would make efforts to master all conjugation forms (て comes latter though). Anyways, most of the other grammar would come after the base-work had been established. Things like te-form would probably come later in the game; I would incorporate it into keigo instruction because of how often it comes up there (ex: ~てください or ~てあげる etc.), but I would probably introduce the so-called masu-stem shortly after furigana comes around (since it is used for a lot more than just masu). Yes, that sounds good; pretend I wrote that in the appropriate place above. After furigana comes verb stems and kunyomi combo-words.
*: I might let the copula だ loose here, just so they can make a simple sentence, but desu comes much later (note that I don't believe だ is merely a plain です; Tae Kim wouldn't bristle at that). In fact, I would always teach the plain and/or dictionary form of everything first, and maybe even delay masu's introduction (it's a special verb IMHO) . Polite language may be, well, polite, but it's instruction too early is a major problem that 99% of teachers make. Most people learn masu form before anything else; it's a little silly.
The main problem with my curriculum is that it would be long before people had the tools to converse, and the majority of people that take it in college (anime nerds) would probably not be patient enough for it. However, part of the reason why Japanese is hard to learn despite being so simple is because we learn it in a pretty mixed up manner. With the kanji and kana, it can feel like learning 4 languages at once; and they all get crammed in your head, delaying those important realizations that help you through a language. If you master being able to read, however, then encounter how to conjugate and link words in an orderly manner, I think it will be a series of simple concepts building upon each other. Another problem with my system in this post is memorizing words without context could be a bit hard to do, so an earlier introduction of some grammar elements may be necessary to make sentences. But really, no sentences until after the kanji are mastered on the singular level.
A lot of people learn phrasal Japanese ("my name is x, it is nice to meet you"), and while that may get you through a brief business meeting where you have a translator at your side, it will never teach you Japanese. Avoid phrases until you have mastered everything I say. Phrases are the icing that make you sound good and teach you about culture, but you can't adapt them unless you understand them.
So, anybody interested in learning this way? I would like to know how it works. I can't go back and relearn (well, in a way, that's what I often have to do, come to think of it) in real life; I can only speculate from my proverbial armchair. Sometimes I get the crazy idea to write a series of textbooks, but I am far from that stage... The more I look at this post, the more doubts I get about it, but...
There's a website I found called: http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/
ReplyDeleteI haven't done it this way but I'm curious as to how good it is. He has now passed the JLPT level 1 (highest level) in only 18 months time. Interesting.
The "-masu" form coming before plain never made sense to me, either. I had pretty traditional instruction (kana test on day three, followed by 「今、東京は何時ですか。今、東京は7時です。」...kanji in roughly government-approved order, etc.). But, in retrospect, I sometimes think it might have been nice to have everything thrown at me at once to an even greater degree, at least in terms of grammar. Taking "desu" as an example, what if "desu", "da", "dewa", and a number of phrases that key on those could all be (at least cursorily) introduced at about the same time? Sure, just put what's appropriate for the student's level on the quiz, but at least give mention to a number of variations that will come up down the road, anyway. Maybe that would be a quicker way to get to the point of, say, deciphering different variations in real world conversation, based on exposure to a slightly bigger picture (of, in a way, the thought process at work behind making the decision to use a certain form or phrase). I was always frustrated at being taught "this means blah blah blah" and then waiting a month or a year to have someone say, "Well... not exactly."
ReplyDeleteAnother idea that's occurred to me, looking back, is that it would have been nice to learn why the syllabary is how it is much sooner. Just some thoughts off the top of my head, based on no research whatsoever. I finished university in '93, so maybe methods are real different these days, anyway.
Well, interesting post and a lot of good looking links there that are new to me. Best regards from the crappy Nagoya 'burbs, Japanese capitol of radiant heat and fried pork.
I really can't see doing it that way. I think it's better to take a more holistic approach, learning kana, words, grammar and kanji all together.
ReplyDeleteI learned hiragana and katakana, then read many, many children's books that used only hiragana and katakana. They were quite easy to understand. When I had quite a few of them mastered, I learned the kanji that were necessary to write the words in the children's books and slowly changed the kana to kanji by writing the words in kanji on white tape and pasting them over the kana.Then I'd read these taped-up books multiple times.
That way I learned simple vocabulary, simple grammar and quite a few kanji all together.
It was a fun project.
When that got too easy, I changed over to the University of British Columbia textbook (of the time...this was in 1982) and learned everything in it, then the second year textbook, skipped the third year because I couldn't find it, did the fourth year reader which took nearly a year and had me nearly crying every night. After that I did the last two readers in the Naganuma series just in time to see the birth of the Nihongo Journal in the spring of 1986.
I did that for three years and then came to Japan to go to a language school. I passed JLPT1 in the 1990 exams.
The biggest mistake I made in studying was concentrating on reading and writing too much. I couldn't speak so fluently, my hearing was limited and even my reading comprehension wasn't so good.
The biggest breakthrough came in the late 90's from transcribing TV shows (eg: TV Tackle), memorizing them and acting them out like a play. Wow, fantastic results. My speaking ability and reading comprehension really got better. Imagine a Japanese student of English student learning how to fluently act out Season Five of Seinfeld, playing all the characters. That would do them wonders.
For the last few years I've been working my way through the Kanji Kentei because I'm not good at remembering how to write from memory. I'm taking 2級 in October. Also I plan to do more transcribing and acting out TV shows.
Sorry, long comment. I like reading your blog. It's like a time machine to 19 years ago for me.
While I recognize the weaknesses in the textbooks and general methodology under which I was taught, I think your method is waaaay not doable for me. My brain does not work that way. Ha ha ha.
ReplyDeleteI like where you're going with this, but a true beginner will not understand what you're talking about. How about paring this down and simplifying the steps for those of us who don't know onyomi from Ronzoni?
ReplyDeleteI don't think i agree to your way to learn japanese. First of all, as you said, most people wouldn't see results for quite a while. Sure, they will know kanji and their readings meanings and combinations, but if they dont have the grammar to put them together they cant really use that knowledge in a conversation. And speaking a language i think should come before reading and writing it.
ReplyDeleteThats why i its better to start the learning with grammar, while incorporating bits of vocabulary. Using kanji right away will only complicate things so its better to stick to katakana. When major parts of grammar are learned, like use of the most common particles and verb conjugations and adjectives, together with sentence structure, then kanji should be taught.
This is the way i learned and i find it most effective. Sure one wouldnt have a rich vocabulary for a while, but at least that one would be able to effectively use what he has.
Watching japanese movies, listening to japanese songs and podcasts should be incorporated too, since its good listening practice and is a good way to learn new words.
However, ive only been learning for about two years and my studies have gotten very inconsistent lately (although i can still hold a conversation) so there are might be flaws in my thinking due to lack of enough knowledge of the language.
I hope I answered some questions here with my latest post.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I'm doing it that way randomkrazy (all japanese all the time) it rules!! I was a complete beginner until a few months ago, and now I'm gearing up to take the 3 kyu. Just recently got a tutor and he said I should be able to get 85-90% on the test if I keep up this pace. In short, I highly recommend the all japanese all the time methods. The SRS (spaced repitition system) is the greatest invention sinced sliced bread. Anki (an SRS program) can also easily be used on the go anywhere on your phone. So I don't waste any precious seconds not studying. Doing the SRS is also kinda addictive once it's on your phone :)
ReplyDeleteI would be totally enthusiastic about this curriculum, it looks far more logical than the typical course.
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