Before the article begins know this to get an idea of my bias: I am a tall white male with blond hair that has dated 3 J girls and 1 foreigner during my time here. One of the J girls was a 2 year relationship.
I do find that the J girls have more of a tendency to forgive my idiosyncrasies (read: awkward behavoir).
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I've been hearing, during my time in Japan, about how guys that could never get a girlfriend back home are much luckier here. More accurately, I seem to always hear this in a way that casts aspersions against guys that date Japanese women. I hear this on blogs, from girls I'm friends with, and from the occasional guy too.
First off, let me confirm that it is pretty easy for a foreigner to find many interested girls in this country. That is as much a fact as a non-quantifiable thing can be. And I will also confirm that some ugly dudes get girls way above them on the 1-10 scale.
But it seems to be that disparity that bugs our foreign sisters so much. All is fair in love and war, unless your ugly, in which case it is cheating. That seems to be at the root of the sentiment. I also hear a lot of "guys come over here and get arrogant." I can hear the vitriol in women's words when they say it. I also recently read a woman blogger's send up of "charisma men," in which she seemed to think that these guys completely lack in all social graces and dis other foreigners in favor of hanging out with J girls. A type of guy I have yet to encounter here.
I keep hearing about these terribly awkward and rude guys, but I never meet them (it admittedly could be a factor of where I live: inaka). All the guys that I know that are dating J girls seem pretty nice and normal to me. So I am wondering where all the sour grapes come from. I hate to say it, but I think it's a racist and jealous thing. And that is going to hurt some feelings, but some people really need to take the time and reflect on why they would be bothered by an interracial relationship. I hear words like "yellow fever" and I cringe, because while I think fetishists exist in small numbers in all demographics, I don't think but a tiny portion of guys target specific races to date, and this term only exists out of hatred.
There are guys that use the J girls' tendency to jump into relationships to their advantage. But it happens back home too; they're called players and some are so proficient in America that they tutor other guys for money. So being a sleezy guy has nothing to do with Japan. Sleezy guys may end up here, but I think they are rare enough that the usual anti white/Japanese sentiments are still oddly numerous and shrill . It's a bias that some girls carry, like a chip on their shoulder.
And you know what's the silliest thing about it? If girls really are miffed that guys are asking out these very friendly J girls, they really should try asking guys out more often. Girls, how many guys have you asked out in your life? Think about that number. It's not hard to get a date if you ask; I hear all foreign guys in this country are sluts anyways; some girl told me that. Be proactive, or stop complaining. Take charge and quit looking for ways in which life seems unfair; for ways to tear down others.
But I express thanks to girls that have an open mind about international relationships, or are even in them themselves. That's brilliant! Your voices are too often drowned out by the others. And I apologize if I hit too close on this one with some of you; I hope it causes reflection and not anger.
I met two "Charisma guys" when I was a student in Tokyo. To be fair, they were nothing like eachother; each sleezy in their own way.
ReplyDeleteI read the same blog post that inspired you to write this one (from myso-called....) and I felt it had a lot of negativity in it, too. I would have written a response myself, but I've been labelled an apologist by Shari (the blog author) for expressing a moderate opinion before.
One thing that's never mentioned in this topic - While it is true that more guys end up working in Asia, more women end up working in Europe for the exact same reason; they find the opposite sex particularly attractive in that reason. They perceive their prospects of romance to be on a higher scale. But, since it is most likely an Occidental-Occidental relationship that women will end up with in Europe, there is no discussion on the possibility of their "failed lives" back home. You just might have hit the nail on the head with the idea of an underlying tone of racism in regards to "charisma guys in Japan".
Hey Clay -
ReplyDeleteGreat post. I liked it so much, I shared it via Google and I soc'd it on JapanSoc. I've never dated a Japanese girl, and that's honestly (sadly!) partly due to this sentiment. Each time a possibility came up, I knew I'd be labeled, and she'd be labeled, and it could make her feel uncomfortable. And I was determined not to be that guy. (Looking back on it, I'm mad at myself for giving other people so much power over my self-image.) I agree with your take on the situation. Again, great post. I'd make a video out of this one.
Haha! What happened?
ReplyDeleteYeah, I do see a lot of charisma men. They exist big time (maybe I see it a lot because I work in Roppongi). I also know a few nice foreign guys who struggle with the "foreign guys are sluts" stereotype forced on them. Not fun is it?
I could talk about this forever. I have my own opinions on this because I'm pretty certain my mother (Japanese) saw my Dad (American) as her ticket out of the personal hell she found herself in. And my Dad was probably a jealous and controlling guy that found her less challenging than his countrywomen, as well as tantalizingly subservient (it didn't work out too well though, reality came crashing down).
And the fact is, you just DO see complete doofus foreign guys with Japanese women way out of their league a lot. My Japanese girlfriends deal with getting hit on by their English conversation teachers and other things. The charisma man syndrome does exist, you can't deny it. And I guess it upsets a lot of western women because it feels like a betrayal when our brothers go for girls that seem to be a few generations behind the feminist movement.
Basically, if you're a white guy with a Japanese girlfriend, you're guilty until proven innocent. That's how it is.
Stereotypes suck though. Maybe this is the first time a lot of white guys had to deal with negative racial or gender stereotypes.
As a dude living in Asia, I like to date local women. I date local girls because it's a good way to get to know and understand the country I'm a guest of. Dating another whitey or foreigner is not my thing when living overseas.
ReplyDeleteI always wonder why more white girls don't go for local guys. Yes, Asian dudes do things differently. But they are certainly suitable mates, I'm sure. I have no problems relating to dudes in Asia-- don't see why a girl couldn't make it work.
The problem isn't white dudes dating asian girls, its that many (certainly not all) women do not get together with local dudes.
Personally, I find dating white women or other asian foreigners in asia unfilling and 'counter productive.'
Hey Laura, good comment! I guess this post was inspired mostly by the one I linked to, but there have been many times at which foreign girls have complained really strongly to me so I have been considering the problem for a while.
ReplyDeleteOh and Deas thanks for your community-minded blog-sharingness!
ReplyDeleteAwesome, I love this thread. This topic always inspires so many emotions -- defensiveness, insecurity, all that great stuff. My psychologist dad would say that if you worked through it, you'd have a breakthrough (not sure who "you" is though, maybe all of us with reactions to this topic).
ReplyDeletebtw p diamond, esq (great name), a lot of foreign girls are really into Japanese guys too. Unfortunately, I'd say the majority of Japanese guys are terrified of foreign girls. Either that, or they just give us attention cuz they think we're easy.
Anyway, if you're looking at your potential girlfriends as a way to experience a foreign culture, then you're probably not looking for a serious relationship anyway. Because that's kind of shallow.
Racist? No way. I can't speak for everyone out there, but I'm positive that is not the general objection to charisma guys. I said to Colin the other day that I would LOVE to see a foreign girl with a Japanese boyfriend who was way out of her league. Jealous? Yeah, in a way, but I'll get to that. It's a bit different for me since I'm in a relationship. I read that post, and it seemed pretty dead on in some places, like the social awkwardness being interpreted as foreigner awkwardness and being forgiven. It does come off as bitter, but she's lived here seventeen years, so I can see how she'd get that way.
ReplyDeleteWhere we live is pretty inaka, so I think we're spared of the worst charisma guys who tend to go to the cities. Take a walk around Tenjin and see how many douches you can find with backwards hats and tapered pants and hot Japanese girls on their arms. At least Japanese guys try to look nice.
Now the jealousy. We come from a place where we were generally made to believe that we weren't thin enough and we weren't pretty enough, and some of us had mothers who told us that we'd never be able to keep a man with our lack of housekeeping/cooking skills, and fathers who told us that any man who would be with us would have to be seriously pussywhipped. And so much of a woman's self-worth is still, unfortunately, determined by how desirable she is to men. I learned from a young age that being a woman means work. You have to work against your errant thighs, your ball-busting attitude, your laziness in cleaning, and you feel guilty about your failures. I don't have a problem with guys who date J-girls. I have a problem with average guys who think they are entitled to a super-hot J-girl just because they're foreign. It bugs me because they don't work for it at all, and even nice guys can get cocky and entitled.
It's not like we'd want to date most of these guys, but when they dis all foreign women as being fat, ugly, and shrewish, that hits close to home (literally), and it hurts. It makes us bitter because guys who already have it comparatively easy back home get completely rewarded here for hardly any effort.
I will say, good points, as expected of you!
ReplyDeleteFrustration is definitely... frustrating
http://www.keepingpaceinjapan.com/2008/02/concerning-charisma-men.html
ReplyDeleteI found the comic Charisma Man extremely funny... Poking fun at ourselves is sometimes good. It doesn't have to be about being defensive or being insecure. It's just funny sometimes to see how Japanese people see us and how other foreigners see us.
ReplyDeleteIt's just unfortunate that decent foreigners (guys and girls alike) have to be labeled along with the stereotypical Charisma Man.
After reading your post, though, I felt like I had to apologize to someone for finding this whole thing so funny...
Actually I find the comic pretty funny too. The attitudes of many foreign girls in real life however...
ReplyDeleteCharisma Man is a riot. I love the direct adaptation of the Superman mythos, only putting it under a negative light. Very creative.
ReplyDeleteAssuming that he represents the average guy in Japan is where problems arise.
Hey
ReplyDeleteI'm here in Japan, studying at uni. I'm writing a dissertation on Charisma men and the whole world around it.
This stemmed from when, last year back in England, I was dating a classmate who wasn't so fortunate in the lady department but I dated him and liked him a lot. We dated a year and then we both came to Japan on our exchange years but at different sides of the country.
It took him a week to replace me with a little pretty J-girl. I wondered how on earth he was able to do this. I also noticed that men around my city do tend to be able to pull really pretty girls.
I don't think badly of these guys- I say good on them (except my ex, of course!) but when I went and placed myself on the singles shelf of Japan, I found that J-boys weren't all that interested in me.
I read the blog that you linked to and I must say that I agree with her and that there are lots of men like this that I have met in Japan. On the other hand, I agree with you too- it's sad that you (gaijin guys) are all seen as guilty and that there are a minority spoiling it for you all (I know one Brit guy who had no luck back home and now has at least 4 girls on the go and has become extremely cocky).
I do feel jealous- if I could score a guy who looked like Matsumoto Jun or Oguri Shun the same way that gaijin guys are able to score Koda Kumis, I would be very happy.
Anyway, nice post.
My story:
ReplyDeleteI came to Japan with an interest in everything, and everyone. Plenty of my friends back home were awkward anime nerds (who despite lackluster love lives are some of the most worthy and wonderful people I've had the fortune to know), and one was an attractive, successful guy who defined himself with the term "yellow fever." I've also been witness to wonderful, happy cross cultural couples. In addition, my own boyfriend is Japanese. In coming to this country, I thought I would be pretty comfortable with most men.
As it turned out, I was unprepared for two things. One, the staring, especially from Japanese men on the street...who rarely spoke to me, but nonetheless occasionally leered and sometimes followed me (in case you're wondering, there is nothing provocative about my attire, which varies from standard full suit eikaiwa wear, to casual clothes, neither of which ever show anything above the knee, nor cleavage. Like many men who come here, I find people praise my appearance much more in Japan than they did at home, and it embarrasses me). And Two, men from my own country who wouldn't even look at me, and showed contempt if I smiled. I'm a naturally friendly, smiling person and I don't mind a bit of awkwardness, nor do I need to be liked by everyone. But I truly felt that some guys wanted to make me feel rejected, before I'd even spoken. And a few men even shared their low and highly stereotyped opinions of "American women" in comparison to "Japanese women" (unprompted mind you).
Of course, there are many wonderful people in Japan, from both sides. I've met lovely men, and women both Japanese and foreign, who have opened themselves up and greatly added to the value of my experience. Because we are talking about a male stereotype, the Charisma Man, I will keep my focus male: I've met foreign guys with lovely Japanese girlfriends who treated me with generosity, as a sister in need when I was new and didn't know my surroundings. I've met awkward anime obsessed guys looking for genuine meaningful relationships with Japanese women exclusively, who nonetheless treated me with kindness and friendship. There have been Japanese men who hit on me in grotesque ways that reminded me exactly of the worst guys back home. There have been, wonderful, cultured Japanese men who treated me with a kind of dignity I rarely find back home, without any seeming objective other than to be kind.
Unfortunately, the NJ men who had no interest in speaking to me (even as a fellow human being), but couldn't wait to talk to Japanese women made a big impression. Not because, they prefer Japanese girls. How can I blame them? Every time I look at my boyfriend, I get butterflies. And not because they're experiencing a new kind of success outside of their home countries (because there are a lot of great guys back home who are under appreciated because of their shyness, lack of experience, over abundant generosity, and perhaps imperfect appearance. frankly, i like to think there's a world where those guys can be king). But I really felt like there were a few guys who looked at me and wanted me to feel bad about myself. It was that, yeah right, like you could ever touch this look, that only the most conceited guys back home would give. The one that makes you go, "woah buddy, it was just eye contact, really" But the difference is that back home, it's some over muscled meathead who spends more time on his hair than I do who exudes that level of disdain. In Japan, it's your average Joe or less...and all I could think was, really? Where do you get that attitude? If it was some GQ wannabe, I wouldn't even think about it (because really, why bother). But Average Joes and Nerdy Neds? Back home, these guys are usually my buddies, my people, and on occasion my boyfriends. I can see why women who've been in Japan for awhile get bitter about it.
White player in Japan
ReplyDeleteI honestly so rarely see good looking Japanese girls with goofey guys. Usually the couples make sense- dorky guy with dorky girl, average guy with average girl ect...
I rarely rarly see even a pretty girl with a white guy let alone a beautiful amazing girl.
I mean think about it. Japanese girls like the charisma men choose to see k out foreign boys because they are unhappy with what they find at home. Pretty Japanese girls have lots of choice of guys and don t really care to go hang out with English teachers. In fact, when you add on the layer of prejudice it becomes incredibly hard for a white guy even a handsome successful one to get a high status japanese girl.
So ask yourself this: Do Japanese girls see all foreign men as handsome or is it that foreign men view all Japanese girls as pretty and settle for girls who Japanese men are not that into?
I think there is something implictly racist about the stereotype this comic creates. In essence, it assumes that Japanese women (or other minority women) are de facto *inferior* to Caucasian or western women. The men dating Japanese women must be "losers" because they can't get prized White women who, it goes without saying, are preferable and superior to minorities. It's a pretty offensive, condescending and ultimately racist message, and rather suprising that the authors never considered their own deep-seated prejudices.
ReplyDeleteActually, you've got it all wrong. It assumes that White western men are superior to other men to the point where even the less desirable/rejected White men can show up on the other side of the planet and get a girlfriend who is probably out of their league.
DeleteI agree completely with this blog, and I think most of the womens comments have only reinforced that. I found Laura in particular rather emblematic of the typical jealousy and vitriol. Specifically this snippet:
ReplyDelete"a few generations behind the feminist movement"
That little dig is a perfect example of how some women choose to use race to judge us.
At once she's set all Japanese girls beneath her, based entirely on an imaginary "feminist movement" timeline. In fact, she's essentially stated that the entirety of Japanese society is several generations behind Western society.
But her judgmental ways don't end there, she proceeds to condemn any man who, being from the "superior" "evolved" Western society, dares to date ("take advantage of" is what she implies) such unevolved backwards women must be a misogynist.
Here's an insight for women who don't get why men from their country date girls of other societies regularly and easily: Both parties in these relationships are probably interested in breaking from their respective social norms.
For example, by dating a girl outside of America, I don't have to worry if holding the door open will be perceived as "looking down on women as weak" or, failing to do so, committing a dating game faux pas. There's no extra meaning to it other than that I'm a nice guy and doing what's natural for me.
We can set our own norms as we like them and start with a clean slate. There is no "dating game" -- or, insofar as there is, the rules are made up as you go. That's a massive advantage to cross-culture relationships, one that really helps to offset some of the other obstacles.
It's also one that helps to level the playing field with attraction for men. Even in Western Society, it is not that uncommon to see a guy with a much hotter wife. Probably, he is just that great of a guy. The difference is that, in a foreign country, there is less reliance on first impressions. People who are interested in giving foreigners a chance at love will give them more opportunity to make an impression. On the other hand, the women who aren’t interested… well you don't even have to ask. The door is closed and it's an automatic no.
So for a guy in our own country, it initially appears that every door is open... but you might only get 10 seconds. Furthermore, there are many choices. Most people, when faced with many choices, will try for situations they believe are at the same level as them, rather than go "above their station."
For a guy in a foreign country, most doors are closed already. So when one is open you've got nothing to lose if it's "out of your league." And for those few that are open, there is time to talk about things over coffee, make a lasting impression, and explore if you are a good match. A woman who has given a foreign guy a chance to make that impression, has already thought about it some and made some level of commitment to at least consider it.
Whereas, at home, most women will instantly judge you based on predominantly shallow criteria. For that reason, you could say it's easier for an "ugly" guy to get their foot in the door with a hot girl in a foreign country.
Notice, this isn't country specific. I am sure Japanese men in Japan face the same issues. Whereas if they travel, a foreign girl whose open to the possibility of dating a guy who speaks another language will have already thought about it some and give him longer to make an impression.
Lastly, I would say that insofar as the Charisma Man caricature is accurate -- it is the same degree to which the stereotypes about Western women being feminazis is accurate. The two go hand in hand.
ReplyDeleteThe women responding to this blog about how every male dating a foreign girl is "guilty until proven innocent" may want to contemplate that notion for awhile and reflect on themselves rather than condemning men for being in cross-cultural relationships.